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  1.  
    All will be revealed in the passage of time :-)
  2.  
    No need to lecture me, R Swimmer... I was not yelling, rather, was typing with the 'caps lock' button on. I agree the emphasis was unnecessary and apologize for that, but still, luck had nothing do to with receiving these downloads; £60 did. Relax.

    That said, I am more than happy with the third round with regards to the quality and content of the material, but was disappointed it was not what was expected as I have been looking forward to it for quite some time. However, upon learning the anticipated show may receive proper 'hard copy' treatment seems far better than a download would have been for an important historic document like that. You see, I do not visit here often and did not know of the change of plans until after my post. Perhaps more in the way of actual CD product versus downloads would be preferable, even if that means less material would be available overall. If the series continues, recent live material would be very relevant.
  3.  
    now i think about it..i read somewhere last year that the "orange tape" was also supposed to be possibly part of the legal bootleg series. but it obviously wasn't in the end.
  4.  
    What is "the orange tape"? I've never heard that term for a specific Wire boot.
  5.  
    found again: sorry, the link is in German.
    http://ostrich.posterous.com/tag/theorangetape
    text written by Ralf Zeigermann, and i guess he got the file of "it's so obvious" from Colin.
    the orange tape according to this is some early rehearsals from 1977 (pre-pink flag album).
  6.  
    Ah, okay. Thanks muchly.
  7.  
    The fan + band relationship is symbiotic and it really rubs me the wrong way when R Swimmer implies that we should feel lucky that we have a Wire bootleg series at all. People who purchased the subscription series paid a substantial amount of money and it should come as no surprise to anyone that people are upset that a few of the gigs listed initially ended up not appearing when all was said and done. I do realize that the gigs listed initially were only for consideration but it seems a tad bit disingenuous to act like removing the Electric Ballroom gig was not going to be a disappointment to those who put money up initially in good faith.
  8.  
    The "Orange Tape" would be fantastic to have in the next instalment. IF there is one of course. But this rehearsal tape is really great - and fun. It's from March 1977.
  9.  
    Stevethehouse,
    I agree totally with what you say and you might care to look at the thread "Wire: The latest bootleg downloads". I got lambasted for suggesting Wire might have deliberately withheld the Electric Ballroom as a 'tease' for the second batch (if it appears) ... however swimhq informed us that it will now be reissued as part of a new retail version of Document And Eyewitness.

    I actually posted to say "hurrah for the new D+E" ... and didn't catch on that this means that the Elec Ballroom tape, which we were given big hints would appear in the official bootleg series - for which we paid £60+ - is now to be made available to us for another £10+ (and the rest!). That's probably why we got the good-but-less-historically-interesting SO36 show instead. Only a month or so ago, official messages on the home page suggested Elec Ballroom, Osaka and A N Other show would be likely candidates for the final batch ... and NONE of them showed up! Obviously the new improved Elec Ballroom show was just too good to throw away on a download.

    And before anybody says it: no, I am not bloody grumpy! Just disappointed at the choices/presentation/handling of the bootleg series, and at discovering that one of the most interesting 'possibles' has been plucked out so that it can be sold as a retail release that I (and many others - like YOU!) have already bought twice (LP and CD), and had hoped to upgrade as part of the bootleg series. Yes, I know Wire has to eat and drink and earn money, but so do we all. Or at least most of us.

    Happy Sunday,
    hp

    PS - anyone who thinks I'm being mean and unfair: go read Neate's and Lester's books for a few jaw-dropping quotes.
  10.  
    @Stevethehouse, when I said 'Think Yourselves Lucky' it was somewhat glib and I think you're reading too much into it. What I was referring to was that New Order (a band with a great deal more resources at their disposal in spite of being on 'indefinite hiatus') announced several years ago they would do a bootleg series along the same lines, but they've not delivered anything.

    To me, it was quite clear what I was signing up for: a series of live recordings, 3 each from the 3 main phases of Wire and that these would be hand picked by the band, and mastered from the best available tapes, plus a DVD.
    I also understood from the outset that the content of the series was not carved in stone and that the process of sourcing the tapes was ongoing and this process would influence what ended up being included.

    There is always an element of risk in paying upfront for a subscription of any type in that you may not get exactly what you were expecting. If you don't want to be disappointed, don't take the risk, wait for the finished product.

    @hippriest Paul Lester's book has been pretty much discredited. I've not read it myself but I think it's been established that the book was a rather ill-starred attempt to cash in (very poorly timed as it turns out) and did very little other than raise calls over on this forum for a re-print of Kevin Eden's splendid, and definitive book.
    I've read Wilson Neate's Pink Flag book, excellent it is too. I don't recall any 'jaw dropping quotes'. What exactly is it that has upset you so?
  11.  
    "go read Neate's and Lester's books for a few jaw-dropping quotes"

    I've read them. What are the jaw-dropping quotes you're referring to. It's a while since I read them now so excuse my vagueness.

    The Lester one had some annoying inaccuracies that could have been easily rectified with a little more care / time and I seem to recall that it whizzed through the more recent years too much. It felt like the deadline had come around too quickly, but can't recall anything too 'jaw-dropping'.

    The part in the Pink Flag book that I didn't like was in relation to the amended song-writing credits. Is that what you mean?
  12.  
    As an aside, and possibly something that's common knowledge / mentioned here already (I'm in the Kevin Eden 'memory''s shot' camp) from an interview with Colin I was watching on youtube a couple of weeks ago it seems that Wilson Neate is indeed to attempt the definitive Wire story in print form
  13.  
    I'd have to agree with R Swimmer on this one, who put it all rather succinctly.

    Also: as pointed out, D+E was officially released at least twice already, first by Rough Trade and then by Mute. Presumably the rights are still owned by one of them. Is it possible that when trying to sort out the licensing of the D+E material some clever EMI lawyers came a-knockin' and said "you want this for your little bootleg series? I don't think so."

    Big labels still have their heads up their asses for the most part, and though I obviously don't know for certain, would it surprise anyone that a physical release was mandated as part of a licensing deal? Or, even more perversely, insisted on having it not be part of something called a "Bootleg Series" (since that word makes any good big label bean-counter cry into his limited edition box sets)?

    Much, much stranger things have happened.

    I have nothing to back this up, just idle speculation based on older discussion of the EMI b-sides and Coatings tracks that were licensed from Mute.
  14.  
    To KEITH:

    I'll whizz through the books and give you some page refs ... the credits being amended is of course one of the most incredible moments. Just awful. And all because someone wasn't happy with their share of the profits from the Hennes ad ... which would probably never have happened had not Elastica 'borrowed' Three Girl Rhumba anyway, which ALSO didn't generate sufficient remuneration, apparently! (Let's be honest, Connection would still exist without the 3GR intro ... )

    Obviously different people find different things unpleasant ... it depends on your life experiences ... having been really let down by friends AND family, including being financially let down by somebody, I tend to react strongly against what I perceive as similar behaviour.


    To RsWIMMER:

    "Paul Lester's book has been pretty much discredited. I've not read it myself but I think it's been established that the book was a rather ill-starred attempt to cash in"

    I'm amazed you haven't read it, of all people! I thought all Wire fans would have rushed out to get this ... but it seems not, because Wire said to avoid it because they didn't get to see the proofs and 'correct errors' ... remove inappropriate remarks, more like! There are indeed some errors and some rushing, but there are some interesting nuggets and the quotes ARE from interviews with Wire. It's an unauthorised book: and thank goodness for that. Unfortunately it (and the Neate book) pissed me off royally! But I don't see it as being 'discredited' ... it's still a valid read, and certainly not a 'cash-in' ... who'd try to cash in on WIRE of all people ?!?
  15.  
    Just to clarify:

    All the Harvest/EMI material is currently owned by EMI. All the Mute era releases (including D&EW) are currently owned by EMI too.

    The Electric Ballroom and Notre Dame gigs are technically not D&EW. But any possibilty of putting out tracks that appeared on D&EW currently involve copyright and licencing issues with EMI.

    Also Colin has stated there are plans afoot to remedy this situation which will become apparant in time.
  16.  
    "Let's be honest, Connection would still exist without the 3GR intro ... "

    Given that the entire song is built on a sample of Three Girl Rhumba, I very much doubt that.
  17.  
    When I first heard the song, I was suitably outraged and slated Elastica for being rip-off artists etc etc ... then years later I heard a tune from their first LP, liked it, picked it up cheap and listened to Connection properly for the first time ever.

    I'm listening to Connection as I type and the sample only appears during the intro and verses ... not during the choruses. And during the verses, it's there, but only for those listening out for it: the vocal melody and assorted other noises predominate by far. It could be removed and it would not affect the song at all (except it would lose its intro). I had to bow my head in shame and confess my wrongness, much to the amusement of friends who had had to listen to my bitching about Elastica years before. (I'll never change my mind on Blur though ... although I DO have Graham Coxon's LPs ... there IS a difference ... really!)

    Anyway, at the end of the day, Elastica did nothing but a big favour to Wire ... even if it had to be split four ways!

    Now, when it comes to Waking Up: even I think the Stranglers were incredibly lenient (I'm right in thinking they didn't pursue it, aren't I?). Waking Up is still easier on the ear, though!
  18.  
    "It could be removed and it would not affect the song at all"

    That's absolute tosh. Almost the entire song is based around the Wire riff, even if it's transposed here and there and messed about with. That they added a chorus and a lyrical melody is irrelevant because without TGR Connection simply wouldn't exist. It's not just the intro—it's most of the rest of the guitar (and therefore the hook that was sold to Trigger Happy TV and is still sold to myriad soundtracks, adverts and intros) that's essentially TGR. Had Elastica's label had any integrity at the time, the song would have been properly licensed and Wire would have been co-writers (much like how Coldplay dealt with Talk, where the main riff is based on Kraftwerk's Computer Love—the writers are listed as Berryman, Buckland, Champion, Martin, Hütter, Bartos, Schult).


    "Elastica did nothing but a big favour to Wire ... even if it had to be split four ways!"

    They did? EMI settled out of court for peanuts, without Wire's involvement or say-so; Elastica made many many thousands of pounds from someone else's song. Some favour.
  19.  
    Even if "the entire song is based around the Wire riff", it could - when the whole song is assembled - be removed and nobody would know anything was missing. As it is heard by the non-Wire-trained ear, it's a faint backing riff, not what anybody might hum. Loads of people write songs that cop a lick from another tune, and then build on it from there. Elastica left their crib in the song: why, I don't know.

    "That they added a chorus and a lyrical melody is irrelevant"

    REALLY ?!? So the bit of Connection that one hums is irrelevant?!? THAT's the song! Even during the verse, the noticeable bit is what's played over the (barely audible) 3GR riff ... as a Wire/3RG fan, there's no way I'd hum 3RG when thinking of Connection ... there's too much else going on ...

    I have no knowledge of the Coldplay record so I can't comment. Being a huge band with more money involved, maybe somebody alerted them to the possible legal problems before they released it? Or maybe Coldplay are just more considerate than other bands. I really can't comment, and I'm NOT saying Elastica were right to do what they did, generally I dislike this kind of 'borrowing' ... I'm merely saying that the 3GR riff is removeable and this would not affect the song, as it does not form the melody ...

    I'm completely unaware of any subsequent use of the song and therefore cannot comment on that, nor on EMI's handling of the affair (although I'm surprised a big company like EMI would settle for 'peanuts' ... or maybe they were only allowed what they got, because the main melody is NOT from 3GR? Having studied intellectual property law, I would guess at the latter: the riff does not form the main melody of the song and therefore reimbursement would be less).

    At the end of the day, though, Wire did at least get something - more than if Elastica hadn't formed! - and that was all four members, I believe. Subsequently 3RG itself was used in a Hennes ad and, to quote Colin Newman, 'the band made a pile of money'. This surely only happened because of the 3RG/Connection gubbins?

    Unfortunately, look at the mess that resulted when money became an issue. Perhaps you're right: it wasn't such a big favour after all!
  20.  
    HP says (of Paul Lester) "I'm amazed you haven't read it, of all people!....but it seems not, because Wire said to avoid it"

    To be honest as much of a Fan as I am, I'm not a completist and after the lukewarm response it got from the folks on the board here I wasn't in a hurry to get it. It's not because Wire told me not to! I just got the impression it didn't contain any new information (and I'm particularly put off by the fact that it breezes through the post Harvest years). I will pick it up if I see it cheap somewhere.

    I've re-read the Neate chapter. It's not a pleasant business falling out over royalties, credits and so forth I'll grant you that, but it's their business isn't it? As Bruce points out it wasn't the sole reason for his departure and it's not just about money. I'm sure all kinds of arguments and bickering have gone down over the years, put four creative and exuberant egos together for 30 odd years they're bound to duff each other up a bit. We don't know the 'arf of it I suspect.

    I can't say personal arguments between bands bother me. It obviously strikes a chord with you, but it seems a shame to let something like that spoil your enjoyment of the music? Are you a Beatles fan? They treated each other appallingly especially when wrangling over money. What about John Martyn? Phil Spector? The list of bands/artists who *haven't* done or said a few rather unpleasant things (to say the least) is a very short one indeed.