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  1.  
    Yes I am going to see Magazine next year. But never mind that back to the heated debate ;)

    Alexander, you're right the Velvets weren't a hard-gigging touring band. I dare say the few people who saw them in the 60s may well have thought the VU 'sucked' live. The early gigs will have been unsettling and confrontational and fans of virtuoso players like Clapton or Hendrix might well have baulked at a 38 minute trance out version of Sister Ray. Thats the whole point, they pissed people off. They made a racket.
    Its well known that the records sold poorly at the time and weren't picked up on until much later. So what?

    We can't judge bands on whether they did lots of gigs and whether people liked them at the time, otherwise all we are left with are popular, stadium filling bands like U2 and there is no place for anything off the wall. There would be no 'difficult' stuff like Throbbing Gristle or Suicide (and people used to really f**king hate their gigs!)

    Wire didn't go down too well at the Roxy either if you listen to the Live LP. The sound of studied, silent punky indifference from the crowd between songs is deafening!
  2.  
    well if we accept the idea, Madman, that punk arose directly as a result of oppressive social conditions in england in '76 than lydon makes a good point. it depends on what your definition of "real punk" (your words) is. i think, again only expressing my opinion here that, that bands like the the Damned and Pistols were the true originators and the bands you mentioned were guys who jumped onto a good thing when they saw it. defining what is or is not punk is, for me, much less important than defining what is or is not good art or music. that was my point.

    actually, lou reed came from a well to do family, but we in the states didn't have the same kind of rigid class system that existed in england at the time. so our punk was different than your punk! hey, in america anyone can be a punk! equal opportunity and all that!

    great line from the Cramps: " you ain't no punk, you punk!"
  3.  
    Alexander: if EVERYTHING sounded like hendrix and clapton Life would be one boring suckfest!
  4.  
    I was listening to some 50s-vintage Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis yesterday, and guess what? It's Punk!
  5.  
    "I was listening to some 50s-vintage Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis yesterday, and guess what? It's Punk" if you think that's punk, try some Vince Taylor!!! or was your tongue firmly planted in your cheek!??!??!
  6.  
    'Punk' see here........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk
  7.  
    that's that settled then!

    what can we argue, er, discuss next?
  8.  
    /\ How about the fur trade - who's for hanging China?
    • CommentAuthorAri says...
    • (CommentTimeOct 1st 2008 edited)
     
    >>who's for hanging China? << Mine's already hung, and the cupboards are full already so no room for any more (I'll get me coat)
  9.  
    I had a bunch of friends who thought they were into "punk" and idolized people like Johnny Thunders and Sid Vicious. Most of them are no longer with us. It's a painful subject.
  10.  
    In the 1970s, it was hard to find a lot of records by VU, Stooges, MC5, and NY Dolls. They all became cut-outs, and the record shops weren't carrying them. If anyone had any of those records in 1977, it was a rare thing. By 1980, many of those records were re-issued. All you could find were Iggy and Lou Reed solo records. I am saying this for younger people. We didn't have the internet or ipods back then.
  11.  
    well I dunno where you live but VU records were available everywhere when I started buying their stuff circa '67
  12.  
    Garageband says:
    "that's that settled then!
    what can we argue, er, discuss next? "

    Hey this is all good!. You should see New Order's forum. They've a huge global membership much bigger than PF, but the current hot topic there is an interminable, endless and incredibly bitchy discussion about the quality of the re-mastered CDs they've just done.
    Examples (if you are easily upset and offended please look away now): on the spine of "Power Corruption and Lies" it says it was issued in 1985 not 1983. How can we sleep safe in our beds at night knowing that?
    And it gets worse, never mind the collapse of the global economy, apparently the 7" version of Ceremony on the bonus disc that comes with 'Movement' has been re-mastered wrongly so that the left and right stereo channels are reversed from the original vinyl pressing. (How anyone could work that out, and why it would be worthy of debate is beyond me but clearly there are people who are deeply disturbed by the way the hi-hat on the intro comes out of the right speaker and not the left...or is it the other way around?)

    Pink Flag (like the Idealcopy list) attracts a more informed music lover and a more refined standard of debate I think you'll all agree!

    That said. I don't really get Alexanders last point about the availability of the VU records?. We've established they weren't a mainstream act, I accept the records won't have been that easy to find (unless you were a clued up hipster back in 67 like Ari! ;) )
    but its well known that a lot of the early US and UK punks had digested the VU stuff, maybe just heard it at a party or whatever, the influence filtered through.
    In the same way the Chicago and Detroit House/Techno artists like Todd Terry and Marshall Jefferson influenced bands like Happy Mondays and The Stone Roses over here in the late 80s. Those early records were really really hard to find (still are!) but the bands heard them in clubs, taped them off the radio, got hold of bootlegs or whatever. Some stuff just gets through whatever.
  13.  
    "more refined standard of debate", yes i'm all for that!

    saw the VU inspired Feelies a couple of weeks ago. this was there 5th gig after a 15 year layoff. show got good reviews in the ny blogs, but i wasn't blown away by the set. they're all accomplished musicians, but they really didn't hit their stride until the end of the show. their signature song "crazy rhythms" was great,
    but the encores were even better: "she said" (beatles), "paint it black" (stones) and most surprising "outdoor miner" (wire).

    also i see Killing Joke is back and doing a couple shows in ny next week. have they been touring in the uk?
    worth checking out? ( i saw them in paris ages ago and wasn't all that impressed........)
  14.  
    pretty funny about the New Order stuff. never understood the appeal of that band. did you have be on head full of ecstasy to enjoy their music? i kinda see them as a sort of Radiohead of the 80's, maybe two of the most overrated bands ever. i find tom yorke's singing style to be really unbearable. and generally i like pretty weird shit. these two bands do nothing for me however.
    • CommentAuthorcc says...
    • (CommentTimeOct 1st 2008)
     
    "Pink Flag (like the Idealcopy list) attracts a more informed music lover and a more refined standard of debate I think you'll all agree!"

    ugh. Comments like this make me want to abandon ship here and go hang with the minutiae-obsessed plebes, like maybe at the New Order forum.


    Freakbag, I'll be checking out KJ when they play NYC the 11th. I mean, if you weren't impressed the first time... but I believe they'll be playing mainly the first two albums, which are excellent.
  15.  
    KJ are doing some dates over here (certainly in London), but, & i'm pretty disappointed in this, none of my mates fancy it!!! tho' i often go to gigs on my Jack Jones, i cba to traipse all the way across towb 4 this one!
  16.  
    Well it didn't take long. The bitchiness has started!

    So on that note I'll just pose the question, how did a band as great as Magazine inspire such a painful thread? Still, as I'm here, I'll have my say... ; )

    I love the Velvets. I couldn't care less how many gigs they played. Or whether they were bone idol wasters or the hardest working gentlemen (and lady) in showbusiness. Apart from Dumpy's Rusty Nuts obviously.

    I couldn't care less if they were punk, not punk or (in the case of Pale Blue Eyes) country & western, nor whether they sold more records than Sham 69, Eater, etc. I know for a fact that they didn't sell as many as Rick Astley, so where does that leave us?

    Anyway, I've got my ticket for Magazine's Mcr gig and am really looking forward to the belated opportunity of hearing the fabulous Light Pours Out Of Me live!
  17.  
    "Pink Flag (like the Idealcopy list) attracts a more informed music lover and a more refined standard of debate I think you'll all agree!"

    i agree with Tim on this! i'm on 2 other music based forums - one is used by the large part by teenagers & can get quite pathetic, as you might expect. another is mostly 30/40-somethings &, though quite light in its topics, it can get quite heated.

    this forum, on the other hand, is much better. using this thread as an example - there's been a great exchange of opinions, thoughts & views on somathing we are all passionate about &, i don't think, it's got personal nor bitchy.

    SOme1 mentioend Suicide above - now a thread on them would be interesting - who's starting it!?!??!?!?

    & i agree with Keith - i just can't wait 2 experience again The Light, Permafrost, Song From Under The Floorboards & all the other great classics live!!! come on Frebruary!!!
  18.  
    >>i kinda see them as a sort of Radiohead of the 80's, maybe two of the most overrated bands ever. i find tom yorke's singing style to be really unbearable. and generally i like pretty weird shit.<<
    Then I'm surprised you don't like Radiohead, me, I can't get enough of them, but each to his (or her) own eh, if we all liked the same stuff life would be boring, I also 'quite' liked Joy Division when all I did all day was get stoned, but they 'do' very little to me these days and New Order I can take 'em or leave 'em, though once in a rare moment I may give them a listen.
    btw are there any women on this forum or has it, like the list, attracted 'men only', there were a couple joined the 'list' awhile back but they promptly disappeared, shame really, one of the nice things about the Shriekback list (when I was a member) was the feminine 'take' on music in general.
    maybe now Wire has a (very capable) woman (Hi Margaret, how ya doin'?)in the band things will change? but I don't hold out too much hope, though I'll be delighted to be wrong.
    and where's our friend Graeme these days? hope you ain't been kicked off old boy.
    as for Keith's comment on 'bitchiness' creepin' in, don't think we're quite there (yet) let's keep the 'flamers' away and keep it that way. jolly good, well carry on chaps....................